Top 5 Tuesday: The Best of All Time…Minus Phelps
The topic has come up a few times, but not nearly as often as it should. How good are the world’s swimmers right now? To the general populace and to the passive swim fan they might as well be nonexistent: they know Michael Phelps and they know that no one is beating him these days. But the reality is that without Phelps there would be an entirely different discussion going on these days regarding the greatest OVERALL swimmer in history.
First I should clarify that, for this post’s purposes, the definition of “overall” stresses versatility: the ability of an athlete to succeed in a variety of events and strokes. That said, let’s take a peak:
#5. Thiago Pereira. This guy is around at a tough time for individual medley people but he has certainly proven he can do it all. The best argument for his case would be this year’s Pan American Games: Golds in the 200/400IM, 200 back, 200 breast, Bronze in 100 back. He broke Ryan Lochte’s 200IM scm world record this year, and just missed in the 400IM. I’m not saying he’s the best ever but without Phelps and with a little more improvement I think his name would be brought up by a few.
#4. Katie Hoff. Accomplishments: short course yards records (500 free, 1000 free, 200IM, 400IM), long course records (400IM). Katie Hoff is still young and the sky appears to be the limit. At this year’s World Champs she was 1st in both the 200 and 400IM as well as fourth in the 200 free. She recently added the 400 and 800 free to her arsenal as well and seems every bit capable of giving Ziegler a run for her money in those. While not a clear cut case, she is certainly entering into that category (particularly if she breaks the 200IM world record) of greatest all-around.
#3 Laszlo Cseh. Does anyone feel bad for this guy? Not nearly enough people give the kid his fair share of credit for the wealth of ability and versatility he commands. At the recent European Championships he broke the world record in the 200IM and 400IM and just missed in the 200 fly. He is the second fastest performer all-time in the 400IM and third fastest in the 200IM. Also, don’t forget that he won bronze in the 100 back at the 2005 World Champs and is the 9th fastest performer all-time in the 200 back. Certainly someone that could have been in the discussion.
#2. Natalie Coughlin. The argument: short course yards records (50 free, 100 free, 200 free, 100 back, 200 back, 100 fly, 200 fly), short course meters world records (100 back, 200 back, 100 IM), long course world records (100 back). The only thing holding Coughlin back from the top spot is that she can’t do the fourth stroke (breaststroke). Clearly she can fake it (100IM), but not to the level as our #1. At the World Champs this year she was 8th 50 free, 4th 100 free, 1st 100 back, 4th 100 fly, time leading off 800 free relay would have been 3rd in 200 free. The crazy part? She can do better.
#1. Ryan Lochte. Is there any doubt that Lochte’s name would be in the discussion for the most complete package of all time if it weren’t for Mr. Phelps? Look at his World Champs performance: 100 back (silver to world record holder Peirsol), 200 back (ended Peirsol’s 7 year unbeaten streak and broke world record), 200IM (silver and second fastest all-time), 400IM (silver and third fastest all-time). Throw in some short course yards records (fastest 200IM/100 back/200 back ever) and some short course meters records (100/200 back) and I think my case is made. No? Did anyone realize he made the US National Team in the 100 breast? That’s his “weak” stroke people. Lochte is, the second greatest all-around swimmer of all-time. Too bad for him he is living in the same time period as the only greater. Lucky for him he refuses to feel sorry for himself and having already taken down Peirsol once, perhaps Phelps just may be next…
Honorable Mentions:
Eric Shanteau. Let’s not forget that Jani Sievinen’s 200IM world record was considered unbreakable (Shanteau’s time is faster). Shanteau is the fourth fastest 200IM man of all time and the first man to win both the 200 and 400IM at the World University Games. The thing is, we might never know just how good he could have been at the individual medleys as he is now concentrating on the 200 breast. The ability to change main events at this point in his career certainly shows his incredible all-around talent.
Matt Grevers. While he has not achieved the same amount of success on the long course scene (though watch out after a summer that saw him make strides in the 100 free and split a 51.1 on the fly leg of the medley relay) his short course performances are simply unbelievable. Look at his yards accomplishments: 19.18 50 free, 42.24 100 free, 1:33.44 200 free, 45.61 100 back (NCAA Champ), 1:38.71 200 back (NCAA Champ), 45.80 100 fly, 1:41.96 200IM. Remarkable.
Comment by Chris D
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 10:39
Is this really a discussion of best all time? It looks like a discussion of best all around right now.
Comment by Jeff
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 10:48
All Time??? Tracy Caulkins!!!
Comment by Scott
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 11:21
I’d have to agree with Chris, David… this certainly is more “Who’s Now” than anything else. I do agree with your choices though.
Comment by doc
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 12:35
Really. Interesting stuff but change the title, man. Otherwise it is a laughingstock.
Beyond this, while Lochte is a lock for the top spot on this list — possibly even if the time warp error is corrected — you really failed to mention one of his most qualifying performances for a “versatility” list. With some great middle distance/endurance qualifications he still won the national title in the 50 free!!! (Something even the guy who is so good it created the call list in the first place can’t do)
Comment by doc
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 12:39
Here, here, Jeff. Though I agree Phelps has surpassed Spitz for the “Greatest” on the guys side, Tracy does not have to shy away at all from comparisons with Michael, wheras this list clearly and appropriately does.
Comment by Josh
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 13:10
This has to be a “right now” list, because any discussion about best all-around swimmers on the women’s side would have to drift to Egerszegi (still the 200 back world record holder, at the 1992 Olympics swam a 4:36 400 IM for the fastest time since the East German set the record in 1981, and remained the fastest time until Chen Yan broke it), Caulkins (American or World record in every stroke), or Klochkova (The only woman to ever win either IM in consecutive Olympics, let alone both of them. Also World Champion in the 400m Free, 8:22 in the 800m free for silver behind Bennett in Atlanta). Hoff, as great as she is, would still have another Olympiad to go before she can even match what Yana has done.
Comment by Chris D
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 13:42
What about Ragnhild Hveger?
Comment by JC
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 13:52
Assuming this is a discussion of the current best all-around swimmers, it’s hard to argue with your top two picks, but I have to take issue with #’s 3 and 5. Pereira is a great swimmer, but if he were American, exactly how many events would he be favored to make the Olympic team in? None. It’s hard to call him one of the best all-around swimmers in the world today if he’s not in the top three in any event. Cseh is better, but he would probably have less than a 50-50 shot at making the U.S. team in the 400IM; he’d have a decent shot at making it in the 200 fly, but he still wouldn’t rank in the top five in the world in that event. I’d move Hoff up to #3, and probably include Manadou at #4. She is great at the 200, 400, and 800 frees, and both backstrokes (admittedly, she doesn’t have a world class 200 back time on record, but common sense tells us that she’s got to be one of the top two or three there). Manaudou only has two strokes, and you seem to prefer swimmers with at least three; if that’s the criterion, then I guess Manadou is out. But she does have five events where she’s one of the top three in the world, and that certainly outdoes both Pereira and Cseh. Another one who might make honorable mention is Coventry. She’s a world class backstroker and IMer, and should medal in at least a couple events this summer. Also, if you’re going to include Grevers based on his short course times, why not include Crocker? He’s had one of the most interesting years of all: despite having turned into a seeming one trick pony over the last couple years, this winter he’s already turned in top times in the 50, 100, and 500 free (when is he going to blast a 200?), both fly’s, and the 100 back. And his long course times certainly outshine Grevers’. Anyway, these types of lists are always interesting (and subjective), and it was certainly a good idea for an article.
Comment by Dave Berkoff
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 14:01
David, why are you talking about Lochet’s “complete package”?
Add to the list:
1. Caulkins — at the 78 worlds she still kicked the snot out of the heavily doped East Germans. She set WR’s in fly, IM, and AR’s in EVERY stroke. I don’t think anyone else has ever done that.
2. Babashoff (Shirley, that is) — We now know that she was in a class by herself in the mid-70’s. Long Live the Queen!!!
3. Thorpe — He re-wrote the concept of dominating a sport. Beside his extra-terrestrial freestyle records, he was a sub-2 IMer and 1:58 backstroker.
4. Matt Biondi — If you had seen this guy swim live in the 80’s you’d have had him on the list. People seem to have forgotten about Matt’s dominance with the arrival of Phelps, but he was the “next Spitz” back then.
5T. Spitz — Let’s face it, Spitz was the original dominant swimmer. Yes, we can say that swimming is much deeper now. Yes, we can argue that swimming is much more specialized now, making Phelps’s achievements all the more impressive. However, Spitz was breaking new ground. Seven golds in one Olympics was simply crazy–and still is.
5T. Evans — At 90 pounds soaking wet, she be-schnizzled the ‘roided East Germans. Her records lasted longer that anyone else. I personally think her 4:03.8 in Seoul was the most amazing swim I have ever seen (other than my 6 year old daughter’s completion of her first 25 back race).
How about a “Top 5 Studs We Often Forget” List.
5. Neil Walker. Geez, I wish I was as good as Neil. 44.9 back/ 54.5 meters; 45 100 fly/ 52.6 meters (broke Pablo’s AR); 41.7 100 free/ 48.5 meters (47.5 relay); etc etc.
4. John Naber. Even with bucket turns and an ugly red hat, he went 1:59.1 and 55.4 in the backs — in 1976! While those time might get a mild look-see now, in 76 they were extra-wordly. Add in his 3:52 400 free and 1:50 200 free and you get a big time swimmer.
3. Alex Bauman — Do you remember this guy? He obliterated WR’s in the IMs and got some hardware in 1984. Alex took the IMs to a new level and made a sub-4:20 common-place.
2. Tamas Darnyi– This guy could swim any stroke and was one of those Hungarian work horses. 4:14 and 1:59 are still crazy fast IM’s now. In 1988, those times were unbelievable. Add in his 1:58 fly and 2:15 breast and you have stud.
1. Salnikov — He had the 400, 800 and 1500 owned for about a decade. No one ever dared challenge him. His 1500 in Seoul was pretty amazing. When he won, he could barely lift him arms out of the water. He was completely spent. The crowd applauded for 10 minutes.
Bonus: Michael Gross– Do you remember his 1984 performance? Nuf said. He held WR’s in the 200 free, 400 free, 100 fly, and 200 fly. He made West Germany a powerhouse.
5.
Comment by maja
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 14:10
I Have to agree with Chris D - not exactly best of ALL time… enough to look at Berkoff’s additions to see that.
However, well done on the well deserved credit to Laszlo Cseh!
Comment by David
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 14:12
Okay, I was hoping that someone would come to my rescue but clearly that is not going to be the case. The headline of the post was “Best of All Time…Minus Phelps” but if you read the preface and language of it you would see that all I was saying is that without Phelps I think an argument could be made for each of these people being the best “overall” (i.e. most versatile not necessarily greatest) swimmer of all time. The point I was trying to make is that these people are doing tremendous things that I don’t think gets the credit it should. Remember when Nate Dusing was praised as the most versatile swimmer around? That was when Phelps was still “Just a 200 fly’er” who hadn’t developed his IM’s and freestyle yet.
As for Tracy Caulkins:
http://www.timedfinals.com/06032007/top-5-tuesday-best-women-collegiate-swimmers/
Great points brought up, just wanted to stear it closer to what I was actually saying. This (unlike many of my posts) was not supposed to be a history lesson.
Comment by Erik
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 14:21
Here is another current one that we should add (and I agree that this is a “now”list - Ryk Neethling —
Never mind his short-course meters swims in the 100 IM — he has a PR of 48.3 in the 100 and 15:00 in the 1500. While he could never do both in the same year, it is still very impressive just to show this kind of range in a career.
Comment by David
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 14:21
Berkoff, you in particular, completely missed the point of this. I was looking at “overall” as in multiple events, multiple strokes. Agreed with Darnyi, Babashoff, Biondi, Gross (maybe), Caulkins. But Naber? He was incredible but not versatile like the others. If you weren’t my childhood idol…
Comment by Runda
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 15:54
Cseh and Pereira? The criteria set was to succeed in a variety of events and strokes. These guys are not likely to win any events, and can maybe podium finish in the Medleys. Like JC said - Manaudou and Coventy are certainly more qualified - even Lenton is more qualified. After all Lenton won the second most individual golds at Worlds (behind Phelps) and succeeded in multiple strokes (Free & Fly).
Comment by doc
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 16:11
David,
Just admit you goofed, bro. Or get a tuition refund from your Harvard writing instructors. You completely missed the point of your own composition. Berkoff’s blast was a “right on the point” treasure. You may have been thinking something different, but it is not what you said.
When the title is “Best of All Time …” and the text of the opening paragraph ends with “…greatest OVERALL swimmer in history” you are in fact soliciting “…a history lesson” as to the most versatile folks.
As to the versatility angle, it seems fair to discuss it measured in both stroke versatility and distance versatility. So a really obvious addition has to be Shane Gould who simultaneously held the 100 through 800 meters freestyle world records and threw in the 200 IM Gold from Munich for good measure, all by the age of 15 when she disappeared from the competitive pool.
There is another really obvious choice right under your nose who fits not only the all-time category but the current one as well. Kaitlin Sandeno. Make a list of all the events she has made the Olympic Trials finals, Olympic team, Olympic final and Olympic medals in and it is a pretty impressive statement of versatility. And even at this point of her career she’s adding things to the versatility resume such as her 100 back this very weekend; it is pretty amazing.
Look over at some of the lower down the list posts on the recent story about Phelps keeping his goals private to get a flavor for the Spitz level of versatility.
This is fun.
Comment by hola
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 17:22
What about Kieren Perkins or Grant Hackett…two of the best distance swimmers ever.
Comment by Chris D
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 18:41
Ragnhild Hveger held at one time the world record in freestyle at every distance, as well as the 100 backstroke world record. The reason most people have never heard of her is that she hit her peak in the late 1930s, thus missing out on an opportunity for an unprecedented medal haul at the 1940 Olympics that never happened. Then there were no 1944 Olympics. She did eventually return to swim in the Olympics in 1952, but only as a relay swimmer. Still, in an age when most women weren’t competing past age 18 she was still hanging with the kids at 32! Truly an all time great.
Comment by Chris D
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 18:48
Let me expand on that post a little more. Her world record in the 400 free from 1940 was not broken until 1956 while other records were being torn to pieces. Her world record in the 200 free from 1938 would not be broken until 1956 by another all time great Dawn Fraser. Oh yeah and she had the 1500 record for 14 years. Picture Janet Evans with the 200 ability of Franzy Van Almsick along with the best backstroke in the world and you can get a grasp at how great she was. I rest my case.
Comment by Josh
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 18:56
Egerszegi
1988 - Silver 100m back, Gold 200m back
1992 - Triple Gold Medalist 100/200m back, 400m IM (her time of 4:36.54 was the second fastest time in history behind the 4:36.10 set by East Germany’s Petra Schneider in 1981 until Chen Yan went 4:34.79 in 1997. Theoretically, without the druggies, she would have held the 400 IM world record until Klochkova broke it in 2000.)
1996 - Gold 200m back, Bronze 400m IM (silver after the omission of Michelle Smith), her time leading off the 4×100 MR for Hungary would have won gold in the 100m back as well.
Still holds the WR in the 200m back and 5 of the top 10 performances all time in the event. Omitting Chinese swimmers, she would have held the world record in the 100m back (1:00.31) from 1991-2000 when Diana Mocanu went 1:00.21 to win gold in Sydney.
I’d say she definitely merits consideration. Winning an event in three consecutive Olympiads is no small feat.
Comment by SwimVoodoo
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 19:14
I think Manaudou and Coventry are more worthy (presently) than Pereira.
Laure took both the 200 and 400 frees to new levels, can go sub 8:20 in the 800 free. Then dips below the minute in the back. Pereira’s world championship and Olympic exploits have a ways to go to be in the current top 5 … if we’re throwing men and women into the list.
Comment by SwimVoodoo
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 19:17
Josh, Egerszegi is right up there with the likes of Fraser and Evans as the most accomplished female swimmer of all time. Certainly, she had the longevity (and more versatility).
Comment by JC
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 19:50
David — Half the people who are responding to this article are giving their choices for the current best all-around swimmers, half of them are giving their choices for five top swimmers of all time. Why don’t you do another top five list sometime about the five (or ten) greatest of all time (separate lists for men and women), and let people weigh in on that……We all enjoy reading your articles, we all appreciate your sense of humor, and we’re all (I think) rooting for you in Omaha, but you did blow this one.
Comment by John
Posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 22:40
I always ponder why Coughlin doesn’t attack the medley LC world records. She was doing good IM times in 1998/99 (when she qualified for every event in Nationals?) with back, fly, free nowhere near as fast as now; she swam a 2:32 200m Breast way back then (not much slower than some US representatives in recent years!) and that’s hardly a major weakness. I always imagined she’d be the first sub 4 min 400yds IM too.
Comment by Patrick
Posted on January 23rd, 2008 at 13:24
And don’t forget that while Tracy Caulkins went 4:36 for the 500 free as an American record, she was also ranked 2nd in the world in the 50 m free in 1981. Come on dude, how can you do research for this list and leave her out?
Comment by Kerry
Posted on January 25th, 2008 at 16:28
Well, you can certainly tell who read the headline and top 5 list and never bothered to read David’s exposition before the list. Seemed pretty clear to me that the premise of this post was who we’d be discussing if Phelps weren’t in the mix, from a perspective of versatility. But I could see how the words, “right now” and “ability to succeed in a variety of events and strokes” would indeed be devoid of clarity if I didn’t actually read them.
Rest assured David, one of us got it.
If we can step away from the historical spin and think about the intended nature of this list, we might collectively consider that it’s a damn good topic in an Olympic year. One we should be encouraging with the wealth of frustratingly shortsighted coverage of our sport out there. Phelps certainly deserves all the buzz he’ll receive, but I’d like to see all of these folks get more — and better — coverage and conversation. Phelps, Natalie, Ryan, and Katie are all basically a lock in any event they decide to swim at Trials, that’s certainly worth a nod or ten. It could take a WR to even make the US team in the men’s 100 or 200 back. And a Kate, Katie, Laure showdown in the 400 free at the actual games? There are tons of possible races this year that could land in the history books in perpetuity, it’s pretty exciting to stop and think forward rather than backward.
And I’m curious to see what Grevers pulls off LC this summer. He was off the hook in Long Beach last weekend.
Comment by John
Posted on January 26th, 2008 at 11:54
Yes, there are some great races to look forward to. I know I’ll always have a feeling, however, that “maybe that world record I’ve just seen could have been even faster”, if it weren’t for the disgraceful change in scheduling for US TV! Then again, I also think the move to include semifinals in swimming a few years ago has been an unnecessary total flop. No events have enough depth (apart from the 50’s) to mean they are anything more than a rehash of heats - whilst, of course, tiring the versatile stars like Phelps with pointless extra races.
Comment by Kerry
Posted on January 27th, 2008 at 02:41
Me too John. On one hand, I can’t blame NBC for wanting to recoup their investment, and the IOC had to see that coming with the amount they’re selling the U.S. rights for. And hey, good for swimming that it’s the sport NBC cares most about. On the other hand, it feels against the spirit of the Olympics on many levels, and to your point, perhaps not best schedule in terms of fast(est) swimming.
BTW, agreed on Natalie and the 200IM. I think she could take Katie for a hell of a ride, and perhaps even win.
Comment by doc
Posted on January 28th, 2008 at 03:20
C’mon, Kerry, don’t suck up to David. He’s a big boy. While it was clear, and everyone understood, that versatility was a key component of the inquiry, when you use the terms “…of all time” — admittedly from the headline but still a part of the article — and “in history” it is inescapable that they have to be seen as the context for the question, “how good are the world’s swimmers right now?” In the construction as written, how good they are right now is in a comparison to the greats “of all time,” “in history.” Right now v. in history/all time. It certainly doesn’t limit how many of today’s greats can be nominated for the honors, or David’s ability to re-write the piece if his intent was other than what he actually posted. Frankly, both ideas are fascinating. And Ragnhild Hveger! How cool is that. I’ve looked at the world record progression charts and never seen her name jump off the page as deservingly as described by Chris D. And we would have never gotten her included in just a present day discussion. This has been great, for both old timers and currents. Thanks, David, for starting all this. Top 5 rocks.
Comment by doc
Posted on January 28th, 2008 at 03:32
Oh, and it is agreed. Looking forward to this summer is likely looking forward to the best our sport has ever had to offer. But doesn’t looking forward mean even more after having looked back to gain a better understanding, perspective, anticipation and appreciation of what it is to which we are looking forward? Don’t denigrate the contribution of the historical spin to present interest and enjoyment. One obvious example — why is eight gold medals a commonly referenced and speculated goal for Michael? Because, in history 36 years ago, Mark won seven, of course.
Comment by John
Posted on January 28th, 2008 at 06:06
But is anyone else less enamoured with “7 golds” than specific performances? If I swam 100m freestyle in 37.87 seconds (OK, it’s a long shot!) next week, it may be the greatest performance ever…but if I come from Trinidad & Tobago there is no way I’ll get three relay golds in Beijing. A matter of luck where one lives, if one looks at gold totals.
Comment by gheko
Posted on January 29th, 2008 at 16:23
I would put Shane Gould (Aus) up there in the top 5 all time, held every freestyle world record from 100m to 1500m, back in 1971, Won three gold a silver and bronze, all in individual events in Munich 72, She retired a year later at 16.
Comment by katie
Posted on January 29th, 2008 at 16:56
C’mmon, Ryan lochte above natalie Coughlin? you can’t deny that coughin has some of the most amazing accomplishments: winning every single event in her college career minus the time kristy coventry beat her, achieving multiple world and american records, being the most decorated female swimmer in the 2004 olympics and other international meets like the World championships, being the first women EVER to go under 1:00 in the 100m back, AND doing all of this after a season of injury in her teen years. AND SHE’S STILL GOIN! i think natalie deserves more credit than that…ryan is great of course…but natalie? a legend.
Comment by hibachi
Posted on January 29th, 2008 at 20:04
this list definitely is a “whose now” and an “all around” instead of an all time list. but for a whose now all around list, this is very good. and no, coughlin should not be above lochte. as they mentioned, she cant do breastroke
Comment by Matthew
Posted on January 30th, 2008 at 11:37
For versatile swimmers what about Stefano Battistelli…Olympic, World and European medals in 1500m fc, 400im and 200back. And a pretty good 200 fly swimmer also!
Comment by Baldo
Posted on February 1st, 2008 at 08:46
Great thread, fun to read all this swimming history! Some of my personal favorites (all already mentioned): Caulkins (AR in every stroke!?! Are you kidding!), Spitz, “The Albatross” Gross, Egerszegi (200 back record just keeps hanging around…is this the year?).
And John, Spitz still put up the most dominant Olympic performance in history in ‘72. 7 Golds all in WR time. If it was only 4 golds in WR time (without the relay), it still would have been a heck of a meet for him.
On that note what individual Olympic performances have compared with Spitz (4 gold in WR time)? Maybe a topic for another top five as we near the Olympics.